Show guest, Mike Blumenthal, shares his latest research findings on the increased power of images in local search. In this episode you will find out what images Google wants to see, how to leverage images to improve your rankings, and how to use one of Google’s free tools to maximize your chances of success.



Transcription of Episode 431

Ross: Hello, and welcome to SEO 101 on WMR.FM episode number 431. This is Ross Dunn, CEO of StepForth Web Marketing and my co-host is my company’s senior SEO, Scott Van Achte.
Today we have a special episode for you. We are interviewing Mike Blumenthal, a lover of all things local and co-founder of Near Media. Mike has been a fixture in the local SEO realm for many years, so he’s a great interview and we’ve always enjoyed having him on. Welcome, Mike! 
Mike: Thanks for having me. Yeah, many years. It’s been a while, isn’t it? 
Ross: When did you start in the industry? 
Mike: I started building localized websites in 2001. We built a content management system back then, and started writing about local in 2006. Because nobody was writing about the tactical aspects of local SEO. It was through my blog that I became friends with Don Campbell, whom I set up GatherUp with, and David Mihm and Greg Sterling, whom I set up Near Media with, and all the folks that we set up Local U with…Aaron Weiche, Mike Ramsey, Will Scott, and Mary Bowing. Those are all friendships that I developed through my original blog in 2006. Quite a while. 
Ross: Yeah, you’ve been busy. I’m always like “What’s Mike up to now?” Still, believe it or not, I still monitor your blog. I give you a rough time about that. You update it when you can, right? 
Mike: Well, I’m actually writing at Near Media now. One of the benefits of having partners when you’re writing is that they can help you develop your ideas more thoroughly, edit a little more thoroughly. has been there forever. I’ve switched my writing over to Near Media. So there, I publish about once a week, and I do more in depth research, more data-driven approach to local that, hopefully has little more gravitas as it were. I don’t swear as much, is what that means. 
Ross: Yes, I love the rants on your blog. If anyone wants to see them, they’re worth it, they’re good reads. Just before we jump into this, one of the things I actually don’t recall. You actually just brought it up before we started recording, but what is it that you did before you got into the SEO realm and digital marketing? 
Mike: We had a family business that I joined in 1980. Prior to that, I was a mountaineering guide for National Outdoor Leadership School. It was a family business that had toys for big boys, but a camera business and I started a computer business. We closed that in 2001, got our butts kicked by the early B&H photos, and Amazon and the Walmarts of the world. We really couldn’t survive in that. Part of that, my whole upbringing as a child and part of my professional career in computers revolved around photography. I have a deep love of photography and I combined that with local, which is what gets me to our hand today, which is exploring the impact of images in local, which I also love, which is helping local businesses do better in the big wide world of the web.
Ross: Yeah, well, it’s certainly a never ending job, doesn’t seem to stop, which is good. Good job security there. Tell us a little bit about your latest research and findings. I know it’s a big question, but you’ve done some really interesting stuff lately, we wanted to share. 
Mike: So I’ve always been enamored by photos in Google Local. I came to the conclusion early on (2014-2015), that photos at Google were likely the most frequently seen images of your business in the world. Over the past several years, Google has integrated photographs into local search, and to all search much more broadly. I mean, just as an example of what I uncovered in that research that we talked about was, if you looked at the local results in 2016, less than 2% were even graphic, let alone imagery. And by this last winter, when they changed them a little bit, up to 34% / 35% / 36% of all space on the page was allocated to images. Not only that, but when you do an intent driven search at Google, like a local search, for example, for “earrings in Waynesville, New York,” Google will surface in local and in the rest of the organic results, earring images. If you change that search to say “engagement rings Williamsville.” You might see many of the same businesses but if Google has the image in your Google My Business Profile, they will switch it out to an engagement ring image. Google is now driving images, through their understanding of images, they’re changing search results based on searcher intent, which to me is really interesting. They’re also introducing a whole range of new visual units in search, as well. This is particularly true in local, but it’s true in all searches. So images are playing an ever increasing role. Google is understanding the content of images in an ever increasing way. 
Ross: Yeah, it was ages ago, I played with Google Lens, Google Vision API, even a bit. For those that don’t know what that is, Google Lens is something you can download on, I believe, it’s on iPhone and Android, and you can look at something through your phone using Google Lens, and it’ll do a search based on the image you take. It sometimes works well. Not always, but sometimes, especially if you isolate what you’re taking. Google Vision API will allow you to test it, essentially. But you can throw an image in there, and it will analyze it and tell you what it’s seeing. But more in a very analytical way, that’s how I would describe it. It just has elements of what it sees, like: a hat,  a chair, and all these different things. You can look at it in different perspectives, you can see if it has any text, what kind of color… really cool. In your analysis, you were saying that that’s essentially what they’re using for this type of technology when they’re figuring out what should show? 
Mike: Right. The basic vision understanding that they’re doing through machine learning, came out of the photos in Google Plus, and it was released sort of as a standalone product in 2015. Around that same time came Lens and the Google Vision API, which were all released in that 2015 timeframe. Since then, with Google Photos, they have billions and billions and billions of images with which to train this AI. They’ve done a reasonably good job, but like all AI, it’s still a little simplistic. But if you drop an image into this interface, which can tell you both the entities within the interface and within the image, as well as labels within the image, it can identify major geographic and physical entities, as well. It will grade its understanding of the image. So if you really want an image of an engagement ring to show on Google, when your users search for Google, you have to have an image that Google understands as an engagement ring. We were doing a sample test shoot through this company I’m consulting with at We went into a dentist’s office and we shot some simulated pictures of the dentist and in one shot, he had his gloved hand in front of the patient’s face and in the other shot he didn’t. That gloved hand was enough to confuse the AI. Google thought that shot was about medical equipment and the other shot where the hand was retracted, it thought it was about a dentist. So if you are looking to achieve maximal results in Google Local results and any Google results, you need to understand how Google sees an image. You know, historically, we’ve always said you have to write content for both your real users and for Google. And now it has become clear that Google understands enough about an image that you have to take an image for both, again, your real users and for Google so that they both appreciate and respond to that image equally well.
Ross: And that’s not just images uploaded to Google, like your local business profile. This is on your website and anywhere, it could be online, right? 
Mike: Absolutely. This started happening much earlier but we’re seeing thumbnails coming into the mobile results now. Which are also pulled in based on the searcher intent and match the searcher intent, if Google can do that, so images on your website that match what the page is about that it shows in search. If it’s a page about engagement rings, you have images about engagement rings, Google may pull as many of those as three images of those from that page into the mobile SERPs. Given the fact that this is increasing so rapidly, like I said, late 2016, 0% of the SERPs were imagery, and now it’s as much as 30% / 35% / 38%. Google tests all these things very thoroughly. Obviously, users are responding to this. You want to be giving Google what they want in terms of high quality images that relate to the pages they’re on. I did some research two or three years ago, where I looked at these thumbnails, and literally 99% of them had no alt tags or meaningful file names and yet Google was still able to classify them. And it became clear to me that they were classifying them by a combination of AI plus context. The image related to the content of the page, plus the image itself, Google was able to understand the content of the image, and thus show it, even though not one of these big business sites had bothered to put in the basics, like an alt tag and meaningful file name.
Ross: Scott, I think you had a question? 
Scott: Well, I have a comment but now we’re past that, it was about the dentist photos that you showed, actually. I didn’t want to interrupt you.
Mike: You can always interrupt me. I come from a Jewish family, one big interruption. People would be stabbing the chicken on somebody else’s plate and arguing what other people thought was arguing, it was just a discussion, you can interrupt me at any time. 
Scott: Okay, I’ll be sure to do that a lot more. One thing I noticed, and I picked this up when I was reading your PDF that you sent over with the dentist photo, actually. You said that you took the hand away from the patient’s face, and it recognized the dentist with higher accuracy. But one thing I noticed here, as well, was ‘dental assistant’ showed up, but yet in that second photo, the dental assistant was mostly blocked behind the dentist, you could barely see her. It’s weird how such subtle differences can actually have a more accurate effect, even though I don’t see it as being more accurate, necessarily, but it’s true. It didn’t show up in the first one. It’s really quite fascinating. 
Mike: I wondered when I saw that dental assistant as a possible answer, whether it confused the dentist as the dental assistant, or whether it was seeing the dentist, dental assistant background, I wasn’t sure. I mean, one of the things about the logic of AI is we don’t know what drives it, right? It just looks at a bunch of pictures and makes its guess, based on some internal structure. But like I said, if you want Google to understand it, you’ve got to give Google an image that it clearly can understand. This Cloud Vision AI is a way to do that. 
Scott: Yeah, it’s really quite fascinating. So what do you think with image alt text. We’re kind of bouncing around here, sorry. But the image alt text, you’re saying, Google is doing a good job at figuring out what the image is about, even if that alt text is not in place. Do you think the alt text still has a big role, then? Do you think the level of importance there has diminished? Or is that still critical, like it may have once been? 
Mike: Well, I think alt text is critical for people who are less sighted and use readers to understand, so it certainly has a user interface value. Also, because when you’re interacting with a web page, sometimes that label will pop up and can describe it. So I think from a user point of view, the alt text is no less important. I think Google realized they were never going to get very high compliance on alt tags. It’s not that they ignore them. I just don’t think that they rely on them and thus, they’ve looked for other ways. I don’t think that you’re going to see much difference. I think great photos that are contextually and semantically related, are going to do well, whether you add alt tags and meaningful file names or not. But it’s easy enough to do those things and I think you should, for the audience that needs them. 
Ross: Interesting. Obscure question, but I’m curious. Did you notice any preference to image file type? 
Mike: No. I haven’t really looked but haven’t. I mean, I think Google must. With a logo, when you load this stuff up to Google, they strip most of the meta information, all the meta information from the file, like all the geo-located information, all that stuff, so I assume they do something on the back end for their needs. And they probably convert it to whichever file format is fastest for them in local. I don’t know in organic, if one is faster for them or not. I think it comes back to PageSpeed, right? 
Ross: I see so many uses of webP and I was curious whether or not they would…they seem to be really on that bandwagon whether or not they’d be changing that or focusing on it. And I understand larger dimensions played a positive role, the larger the photo, it typically did better. 
Mike: There’s a point of diminishing returns, obviously, in terms of PageSpeed, load times, all the other stuff. But obviously, that was the test that Joy Hawkins did with the organic search results and getting a page to show in that context. In the context of pure local, once it hits a certain size, which is about 1000 x 600 pixels, you’re okay, you know. It doesn’t need to be bigger, Google’s going to be able to size it for the various formats they have. One of the problems with Google in local is that there’s so many different ways and places they show images. One of the things the AI does is crop the images, you have to be really careful to have a sort of a center weighted image that looks good when cropped, in typical ways. But beyond that, image quality is also something that this AI can look at. Sometimes it makes a mistake, and it thinks it’s an obscene image instead of an image of molds on a wall. For example, I don’t know what they thought was obscene about the image of a mold on a wall. But I’ve seen this happen where Google AI banned an image because it was obscene, and it really was mold on a wall. I can’t imagine what it thought it saw. 
Ross: I don’t want to know. 
Mike: That’s right.
Ross: I’m sure they see everything. 
Scott: I hear you’re saying about having your image being sort of centered, if you’ve got a face, you want to be there, so you don’t get cut off. I haven’t actually seen this happen, but when they’re cropping, the AIs are like “Okay, that’s a face over here. So now we’re going to crop it over here or to the left, to the right.” Do you think they’ll get to that point where they crop more intelligently?
Mike: They have gotten to a point where they’re cropping more intelligently, and it has improved dramatically over the last four or five years. So cropping is obviously something they’re working on as part of this. It has gotten better, but I think you’re right, I think they will center… because in traditional photography, there’s this rule of the third which is, that the best image is one that’s offset slightly to the third of the page. I’m sure that they’ve implemented that, because there’s a lot of research that shows that Airbnb did some very interesting research with professionally shot photographs that meet that standard, and have good white balance and color balance, the click through rates are significantly higher. I think that’s true, not just in housing like Airbnb, I think it’s true in every image across the web. 
Ross: We have a lot of small business listeners. If they have a local business, how do you feel they should take advantage of this? 
Mike: Well, I think it depends on the size of the number of locations they have. Obviously, the problems change as you scale but I’ve looked at it from all these angles. One is, generally speaking, most businesses are best off hiring a professional, whether they’re multi location or single location, because the professional will get the job done. Like I said, with good white balance, good color intensity, and a good framing of an image, and it will happen.  I mean, all too often, like in the agency world, I know where I’ve said to clients, “Get me some photos” and it’s on my list every month, and I check in with them every month. It’s “Yes, yes, yes, we will get you photos. We haven’t had time.”
Ross: Always. 
Mike: So the first thing is you’ve got to take pictures. Now if you’re not able to take pictures, then you have to outsource that. So issue one is to get photos. Issue two is to get good photos that meet the sort of standards for high click throughs: good white balance, good color balance and proper framed. Then with every image you do, I would take several images for every category of business service or product that you sell. So if you’re selling engagement rings, and jewelry, and necklaces, etc, I would take multiple images of each. Then I would test those against the AI. Now you can do low volume testing for a single location by simply going to Google’s Cloud Vision and dropping the images in and seeing how Google understands them and using the ones that it understands better. At scale, this is a problem. This is one of the reasons I started working in this company because they have: 1. Photography network across the United States, 2. They have a real time photographic capability. The photographer, in near real time, will get the images sent to the cloud. So the centralized marketing department can see the images coming from a remote location. But the photographer is fed back in real time, whether the image attributes of the image are what Google wants to see. So the photographer can’t stop shooting a type of image until they get a grade of an A or higher. Even at scale, works very well. Test these images against the AI, use the ones that really work. 
Mike: Then we’re seeing some indication that it’s good to periodically refresh your images at Google. We’re seeing some indication that dripping images out to Google is going to give you an ongoing sort of little bump to your listing, we are seeing that listings that do images this way, get increased conversions of all sorts of both within the Google business profile, as well as from their website. We’re seeing consistently across verticals, it’s surprising to me, I did a test myself in legal vertical. You’d think who cares about the images in legal vertical, and yet, it must be because Google exposed their listing more. They got significant, we’re talking 100% year over year increases of phone calls and web clicks for the locations that had the images updated, versus those that didn’t. If I’d only seen it once, I’d say maybe it’s just the way we’re testing this, but we’ve seen it consistently in dentists, insurance agents, restaurants, it doesn’t seem to matter. We’re seeing significant conversion increases activity, somewhere between 20 – 100%. Dripping seems to serve that. Then finally I go into a reactive mode, I would monitor the images that users are uploading, if they’re bad, I’d report them. If they’re outdated, I report them. If you can’t beat them in the user generated worlds, I join them by creating places within your business, where you make it particularly attractive to do a shoot so that you can turn and drive the quality up so that people are taking those kinds of shots that you want, rather than the ones you don’t want, because UGC can throw a wrench in this whole thing. 
Ross: I just gotta ask, what do you do in those businesses, like an insurance company, like an SEO company, a programming company, you know, they don’t really have something that you hand over? What do you do for photoshoots for that kind of stuff? 
Mike: Right. Google likes exteriors, it’s particularly true for those they can complement, driving directions. So that’s exteriors, parking lots, physical user interface photos, staff photos do really well. Client and staff photos do well in those contexts. In some cases, like in dentists and doctors, there’s in-office shoots, and also facility shoots. In cases where you’re expecting a certain level of hygiene, you can demonstrate that level of hygiene, I think people respond to those as well. In the case of, we are doing keyword research prior to the vertical, we then are identifying keywords that are likely to be surfacing these listings in local and then trying to shoot against these keywords. When they get a match, the photographer then passes on. It’s a pretty sophisticated system. 
Ross: It would be pretty particularly obvious SEO would ask this question, but if there’s actually text in the image, does that help? 
Mike: I don’t know if it helps or not, it’s a great question. Google does understand text in an image. They’re able to understand both logos and text. There is, in  local and in AdWords, I think there’s a 10% surface area limit. If there’s too much text, the image will get rejected. Same thing happens in local, so I think you have to be a little cautious about that. I have done some experiments within that 10%. I haven’t done experiments as to whether it changes outcomes. 
Ross: Because it would be interesting if it said ‘engagement ring’ and it was actually an engagement ring. Because how would they know it’s an engagement ring versus an anniversary ring, right? 
Mike: They seem to have a pretty good idea that it is an engagement ring, and you should try some of these searches and see. They do a pretty good job of identifying without text. I don’t know. I mean, given they understand so much about an image. If an image is understood by Google as much as it can understand these things, I don’t think you need to gild the lily as it were. I think having a great image is enough. You don’t need to put the text in, right? 
Ross: Oh, come on. You’re talking to SEOs here. 
Mike: I get that but what is SEO is doing image SEO at this point? Let’s walk before we stumble, right? Let’s take great pictures before we crap in our own bed here. 
Ross: You know they will, though. 
Mike: Well, they will try. That is pretty sure, they will try. But I think the fundamental issue is great photographs that have been tested against Google’s understanding of a photograph. If you’re gonna take anything away from this conversation, take that. 
Scott: When we are giving advice to clients and telling them ‘put out so much content,’ They always say, ‘Well, how much content is enough?’ Can we get back to your dripping photos into Google there, did you uncover any magical frequencies? Is it just more is better, or is it a daily photo or weekly photo or monthly? When they ask me, ‘How often should I do this?’ What should I tell them Mike says? 
Ross: Especially refreshing photos, I would think, is another thing. 
Mike: We don’t have hard numbers yet. Obviously, the understanding of this is evolving. We’re trying to assess that. One issue is that it depends on the amount of user generated content. Google likes freshness in photos. And in local, there’s this issue where photos can come in from any Tom, Dick, Harry, or Jane that happens to buy your business, and Google likes freshness. If there’s a lot of user generated content, it is difficult to get more than, say, five of your photos, out of the top 10. Google ranks all your photos in local, shows the top 10 in some sort of ranked order. If you have a lot of user generated content, it’s difficult to get more than five. So in that situation, we have a lot of user generated content, I would say adding two to three photos a month to drive user generated content sort of lower and off that 10 is where you would go. 
Mike: In businesses that don’t have a lot of user generated content, I would say once a quarter is probably enough. But I’m still determining,.. Google seems to bump and give some increase in exposure to businesses that regularly update that drip. If that’s the case, then I would hire a professional photographer, get your photographs for the year, and then drip two a month or three a month or four a month into your business and then bring that photographer back, and do it again. I mean, it just isn’t that expensive. If users are enjoying it, and you’re getting continuous increased conversions, I would stay at it. So I can’t give you a straight number yet. I know you should do it more, if there’s more user generated content. I think that it does seem to be… three- four a month seems to be enough that it gives you that lift. I don’t know how long it’s gonna give it a lift or whether the lift is persistent. We’re just seeing a lift. 
Ross: Cool. Are you aware of any… I’m sure aircam is this proprietary system, but are you aware of any mobile apps that can easily run Google Vision API on a picture on your phone, 
Mike: Other than aircam, not yet. I mean, that’s what they’ve done. In fact, next month, they are coming out with a low cost SAAS product, which will be an app that will encourage you to take three images a month to do what we’ve talked about. And it will grade those and when you get those done, it’ll then encourage you to take three more based on your vertical. So they will be  releasing it, it’s in beta right now. 
Ross: They are lucky they got you. That’s a good idea. I’m sure they wouldn’t have thought otherwise. 
Mike: Well, the people at aircam are pretty smart. They’re the people that developed test flight that was sold to Apple. They have a long history of sophisticated developments. I’m glad to be a part of it because I love local, I still love photography. I think every business should be expanding and every SEO should be working in this area, because it’s relatively transactional to get good results, right? It’s like take good photos, upload them, put them on your website, use them in social, people respond, you get more conversions. It’s much less sort of amorphous than more content, right? 
Ross: Right. Okay, cool. When I was looking through that PDF you sent us. The title of it is ‘Google and the visual future of local search.’ Really great PDF, thank you. It was a great walkthrough. On page 10, it said image based product SERP units, local product images. I’m just saying that in case anyone gets the PDF that wants to go through it. 
Mike: To get the PDF, we’ve now made it as a free thing if you subscribe to our three times a week- newsletter, so it’s and they get that PDF as part of that. They can always unsubscribe but I think we do a sort of very strategic look at local in our newsletter. Sorry, go ahead. 
Ross: Alright, it’s great. So, you mentioned that local e-commerce products can be scraped and added to the image list. This is when e-commerce products are showing in search, what would a business owner need to do to maximize their chances of a particular image being scraped? 
Mike: Well, in that case, what you want to do is tie your POS into Google’s Merchant Center. Many of these POS like Shopify and the one for WordPress – Woo,  have API’s already built that will feed your inventory in real time into Merchant Center. And Google will then integrate those into both images and into local search. Something that has also happened is, you are now seeing these e-commerce images integrated into the pack as well. Again, these require that the business be tied into Google through Merchant Center. They don’t need to advertise necessarily through Merchant Center, but they do have to be providing real time inventory, which is free. So that’s the best way to maximize those, either in the image, this new image result unit that shows up or into the new capability in local pack. We’ve seen images increasingly show up in local pack as more and more businesses integrate their POS with Google. The other way to do it is with a product from Google called Pointy, which sits between a traditional POS and sort of reads the data as it’s being measured as you’re scanning it, and then feeds it to the Google Cloud to the Merchant Center. 
Ross: Yeah, we talked about that before a few times in the show, I think it’s one of the coolest little inventions. 
Mike: All those images will show up in the unit. You’re talking about as well as in the pack. For example, if you do a search on ‘Nikon lens, New York City,’ you’ll see images frequently brought into the pack from the likes of B&H photo or one of those. 
Ross: Probably getting into the weeds here but did they randomly choose the product photo or is it usually the primary one? Have you noticed? 
Mike: Randomly in terms of where they order it? 
Ross: Like if they were gonna choose an engagement ring, but there was a whole bunch of different photos of that same engagement ring, do they usually pick the primary? Is there any control we can have with that? 
Mike: I don’t know that yet. Again, they rank them in a general sense, somehow. There is a ranking algorithm. They pick it from the top 10 photos, typically. Also in local, if you have enough categorical photos, they do make subcategories in your business profile, where they’ll have a number of photos for the engagement ring, a number of photos for the earrings, number of photos for the necklaces, etc. and they’ll show them so they will go deeper. I assume there’s some sort of feedback loop there that the ones people pick, are the ones that Google then shows more in the top 10. So typically, they need to be in the top 10, you get them in the top 10 by having them be understood by Google’s AI and they draw them from there. If you have five engagement ring photos in the top 10, which one they pick, I don’t know. But they gotta be in that top 10. 
Ross: Fascinating. So are there any other tips you want to leave our listeners with on maximizing image SEO? 
Mike: Kind of like everything in marketing, the value of images goes beyond just the tactic of images. You need to understand that in the competitive world of local SEO, many customers are making a decision to purchase from you right from the front page of Google. What Rand Fishkin calls ‘zero click search results.’ In other words, they’re not going to your website, I call a ‘zero click opportunity for business.’ One of the ways to win that besides reviews, is by having great photos. Every photo you put up is a great photo, so that whatever photo Google picks, it looks good so when a user is making this sort of decision, and all this stuff is going on subliminally if you’ve got a better photo, you have 4.5 star reviews, and everybody else does, it’s going to be the photo that makes a difference. Regardless of any ranking, or visibility changes that go on. So I think photos have this intrinsic emotive capacity that you can’t ignore no matter what. 
Ross: Now I’m going to have clients asking me how to make their widget photo look nicer. 
Mike: Well, I think every photo needs to be a good one. 
Ross: Thank you so much. It’s fascinating and I know our listeners are going to take a lot from this, I know I’m going to be talking to quite a few of our clients to figure out how we can do a better job. I’ve got one example of a client who has a very busy store, they do floral arrangements, but they also sell fragrances. And because of that their photos…I mean, it’s beautiful if you go inside the store, you just want to look, it’s such a cool story, there’s a knick knack everywhere. But if you take a photo, ‘Oh my God, what are we looking at?’ There’s just no way. So we’re gonna have a lot of work to do there to fix that up. 
Mike: That would be interesting to see. What we find is that simplifying photos for the AI works a fair bit to sort of bring what you want to the fore and push what you want, not, you know, into the background. A lot of bokeh effect or blurring beyond the photo, beyond the main object kind of photography works.
Ross: Actually, yeah. Maybe that would be the simplest way to do this. It’s gonna be interesting to test this for sure. 
Mike: Let me know. In fact, anybody, I’m on Twitter @MBlumenthal or, I would love to hear from people as well. I have an open email box, I answer every incoming email, so feel free to reach out to me if you have questions about photos. I would love to hear them. 
Scott: I’ll throw some links up on our Facebook page as well to your social profiles and a link on how they can subscribe and get that PDF and make it a bit easier for people. So if you’re listening, just go to our Facebook group and you’ll find all that stuff there. 
Ross: And our show notes newsletter for sure, that’ll have it all as well. 
Well, on behalf of myself, Ross Dunn, CEO of StepForth Web Marketing and my company’s senior SEO, Scott Van Achte, and our special guest, Mike Blumenthal, co-founder of Near Media, thank you for joining us today. 
Mike, it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you. 
Mike: As always, it’s a real pleasure on my side too. Thank you very much for having me again.
Ross: Thank you. Have a great week, and remember to tune in to future episodes, which air twice a month on WMR.FM 
Scott: Thanks for listening, everyone.